From A Vegan Dinner to Jail Time: Adam Durand on His Groundbreaking Open Rescue Case

Jasmin Singer: Mariann, do you feel like if we just like went out to the grocery store, or a coffee shop, and I said, I'm Jasmin Singer, you would just immediately, I'm Mariann Sullivan. Like, 'cause I feel like you just say it it?

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, no,

Jasmin Singer: It's like a call and response.

Okay.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think I would do that.

Jasmin Singer: Right. Okay. Well, I, I also

Mariann Sullivan: I think, I know when I'm on Zoom and when I'm not, I don't know. like,

Jasmin Singer: I don't go into grocery stores and say I'm Jasmin Singer.

Mariann Sullivan: Well, speaking of which, if we were to go into a grocery store near where we live we weren't paying attention to where, it would likely be a Wegmans, which is the primary grocery store in the area where we live, which brings us to...

Jasmin Singer: Yes.

We are so excited for this Flock Friday. We're so excited to welcome Adam Durand. Adam is a videographer and an animal rights activist with over two decades of history in the movement. And he first gained recognition in 2005, I can't believe it was that long ago, I'm so old, uh, for exposing cruelty at Wegmans.

And this is, it was specifically at the Wegmans Egg Farm, I think, in a case where he spent 35 days in jail before being released by an appellate court. And Adam's advocacy has included so much, it's hard to put into a sentence, but open rescues and strategic campaigns and support for farm animal sanctuaries, such as Mockingbird Farm Sanctuary, where he serves as the lead caregiver

Adam Durand: A lead caregiver.

I'm sorry.

Jasmin Singer: A

Oh no. Okay. I love that you did that. Okay. You're so sweet. Aw. okay. As a lead caregiver.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, I, I'm just gonna insert here. I used to work at the court and my title was Principal Court Attorney. And there were court attorneys who perfect were fine with being introduced as the principal court attorney and others who said, well, I'm a principal court attorney.

There were about 50.

Jasmin Singer: One

Mariann Sullivan: Thank you Adam. I appreciate, I appreciate that correction.

Jasmin Singer: I was the Senior Editor at Veg News and someone wrote an article for us who was the former Senior Editor, wrote so and so, used to be the Senior Editor and the Copy Editor, who was also the Senior Editor at some point, crossed it out out and said, was a Senior Editor...

funny. Um, anyway, so back to Adam. His impact has been featured in so many national publications, including earlier this year in Vox and cited by one Mariann Sullivan in her recent law review article. Welcome to Our Hen House, Adam.

Adam Durand: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Jasmin Singer: So I just wanna bring our listeners and our viewers back to, uh, back to this moment where Mariann, you could help me here, but I was... Mariann and I moved to Rochester about four years ago-ish.

And I was recently giving a talk, I don't know, maybe six months ago at the Unitarian Universalist Church. And Mariann was there and as in the audience, and suddenly Adam came up to me and was like, Hi. I. Hi, I'm, I'm Adam Durand. And I was like, huuh and it was more like, I was so awestruck because you have such a big presence in, in the animal protection world, but like also the early days of my own advocacy, it really coincided with your, you know, with your investigation.

But I also knew that Mariann was gonna lose her shit. So I think the first thing I said to you was, can I introduce you to Mariann Sullivan? And then Mariann lost her shit.

Because Mariann Mariann. Tell us why, like, why was that such a big moment for you?

Mariann Sullivan: Well, not only have I been familiar with Adam's work since that, that investigation, uh, and a good friend of mine was one of the attorneys on, on, on his case, though I never met him then.

And then I wrote that article in which was all about like the legal relationship between, well, the law and open rescue and how fraught that is and how there should be defenses. And the courts don't let you use the defense. I mean, it's a crazy, crazy legal situation. And one of the main cases that I emphasized in that article was Adam's, because it just, it just brought all of those, uh, all of those problems in, in litigating this to the fore.

And of course now, uh, there were other cases, uh, the Direct Action Everywhere. So things have really progressed since then. There was a kind of a long hiatus, and then other people started doing the same thing. I don't think you necessarily invented, uh, open rescue because I know Patty Mark is kind of like credited with that, but you sort of, I mean, you certainly invented it for, for, for me and, and I think largely in the US the, the whole practice of going in, taking the animals and not hiding.

I mean, people have rescued animals since time began. There've always been good people who saw a animals in desperate straits and, and went in and got them, but not necessarily announcing that, uh, they were there. Before we get to that, I just wanna mention before we start that I know there is a current court case, 'cause Adam has not stopped his activism, and it involves you, but I know you can't talk about it, so we're not gonna ask you to talk about it, but we're gonna link to a Vox article that is all about that case, but it's still in litigation.

So, uh, so we won't go into that. But, but, but we do really want to, we, we wanna go into the details of what happened in the Wegmans case, because I think it is one of the seminal cases in animal law and really in animal rights. And it's, it's also the reason we know about you. It's an old story, but it's still so important and not enough people know about it.

So this isind of an unfair question. Can you just tell us the story, like, like just start at the beginning and tell us what happened people for people who don't know yet?

Jasmin Singer: It was a Tuesday and I had pancakes that morning...

Adam Durand: Yeah, I mean this, it started for me in 2022. I had a friend over, um, for dinner and she was vegan, and I didn't really know what veganism was.

Mariann Sullivan: I don't think you meant 2022.

Adam Durand: Oh, I meant 2002. Thank you. So, yeah, this was back in 2002. So, um, so yeah, I had a, a, a friend over and I, I was looking up what are vegan recipes? Like, what is this all about? And so I made this fun meal. It was like fondue and, uh, did a bunch of fun stuff. And I told her after dinner that I had so much fun, like learning this and making this food.

And she's like, why don't you try going vegan? So I said, sure. So I was suddenly vegan without any real idea of the ethics or, you know, I, I cared about animals, but I didn't make that connection personally until I was vegan. And then people started calling me out for being vegan and saying, well, you're a hypocrite because of this reason or that reason.

They wanted to debate me and I had no idea how to debate. So I joined an online community and eventually met local friends. And so, you know, I was starting to become part of like, this, it was kind of, it was a smaller community back then, but. Um, we, one night we were sitting around at a restaurant called the Atomic Eggplant, um, which is no longer here in Rochester.

The, The Owl House is here in Rochester, it replaced The Atomic Eggplant, but it was a vegetarian restaurant and we were kind of brainstorming how do we make an impact as activists? And, you know, around that time, uh, Milo Runkel had come to town. He was working out of Ohio. He was very young at the time, but he, he had started activism around, um.

Uh, he, was, he was go, he was basically going into factory farms and documenting what was going on inside. And we're like, we wanna do that. So, and he had, he had learned that from Patty, um, and, uh, some other folks in the movement. And he had kind of talked to us a little bit about it and we, we felt inspired to kind of take it on as our own.

So there were only maybe five or six of us in the core group, um, who were kind of, who put this all together, who were learning about biosecurity practices and how to film inside of a factory farm and all these sorts of things. And then we were looking at, well, what's, what factory farms are there in the area?

And there was one big factory farm that was owned by Wegmans Food Markets. They were the only grocery chain in America to own a factory farm. And we said, well, that's an obvious target for us.

Jasmin Singer: Wow. I mean, first of all, I just wanna say that when a lot of people go vegan, they're not, their, their first instinct isn't, I'm going to go into a factory farm.

Their first instinct is, I'm gonna make some cupcakes and share them with my neighbor, or something. Like badass, A. B, um, what was the facility like that the hens were in?

Mariann Sullivan: Uh, before we, before we get into the details, I just wanna mention how inspiring that story is because of the person to person trail that you demonstrated.

People always are saying, oh, we need massive change. Individual activism doesn't matter. Let's just look at that. That woman was vegan, she had dinner with you, then you met Milo. Like, people influence each other and then things happen. So individual activism is so important, but go on.

Jasmin Singer: No, I'm being a terrible interviewer right now.

But I need to, to say, kind of weird that you were in Rochester and it was Wegmans. Was that just a giant coincidence that that was the only grocery chain that had their own factory farm?

Adam Durand: Yeah, we were just here in Rochester, uh, with a grocery chain that had 750,000 hens in a facility about 45 minutes outside of the city.

So it was just all chance.

Mariann Sullivan: Wegmans was always, like, styled itself a little different and a little, I mean actually in a, in a bragging kind of way. Like, you know, maybe not quite Whole Foods, but, but a little

Jasmin Singer: know,

Mariann Sullivan: a little better. And Wegman's actually, those people who aren't familiar with Wegman's, it's a large supermarket. It's now a la very large supermarket chain in the northeast.

I think it's just in the northeast, but it, it was founded right here in Rochester. So

Jasmin Singer: That's what I

Mariann Sullivan: think is weird.

You were, you, were going after the home, the home team.

Adam Durand: Yeah

Mariann Sullivan: And it's totally beloved.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah.

Adam Durand: It is.

Mariann Sullivan: People love Wegmans. I don't know why. It's just a supermarket, but they love it.

Adam Durand: And their motto is "food you feel good about" and it's printed on their egg cartons with a picture of a picturesque farm, you know, and animal care certified. And at least at the time, that's what, what the cartons looked like. And so we knew that this was the ideal target. This is a beloved company. And you know, we were gonna go get footage, rescue any sick animals we came across, and release the footage to the public with our names on it. That was the plan all along.

Um, so we went in on three nights in 2004, um, and I almost said 2024 there. And, um, so we, uh, yeah, we, you know, we, we had just gone under the cover of darkness. We had our biosecurity gear on, and these sheds were massive.

Uh, so we come up to the corner of the first shed and there is a hole cut in the corner of the shed. So somebody had been in before us.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Adam Durand: We climbed in and we, uh, took all our biosecurity gear off, and we were started filming and we were just floored with the fact that that egg farm looked abandoned other than it was filled with live animals. But it, it was covered in dust and there were augers that brought the food in and conveyor belts that brought the eggs out.

And other than that, like it was just this mechanical monstrosity that had been forgotten, it looked like. Just, um, and then not only that, like below the cages were these manure lagoons where chickens were walking around, chickens who had managed to get free from up above. So it was like, I mean, I can still remember the smell today.

You know, like it was just something else, other worldly in there. And, um, so we, yeah, we ended up in that summer, we, we took, uh, 13 birds out with us and 11 went on to live, uh, long lives, uh, at local animal sanctuaries. And then about a year later, 'cause we had spent a lot of time working on a documentary and, um, working with a, a journalist and we eventually went public the following summer, uh, with our story and, um, yeah, then came all the charges and everything like that.

Mariann Sullivan: And you put a video out, right? I mean, a, a kind of famous video.

Adam Durand: Yeah. We put out a video on BitTorrent, um, and, uh, we had DVDs, but yeah. So there was no, uh, like online streaming service at the time.

Mariann Sullivan: Back in the day. Yeah.

Adam Durand: So, you know, for, I think it was like $5 we'd mail you a DVD. Um, and, uh, we also handed them out in front of Wegman's locations and, uh, you know, so we were basically out there just trying to distribute the video in any way we could.

And, uh, you know, we also would, uh, do like TV activism, which was very small, analog TV on a wagon hooked up to a marine battery.

And so it's nothing like the TV actis activism you see these days, but, and it said right across the bottom it said, "food you feel good about", about question mark. And there were, uh,

Jasmin Singer: I

Adam Durand: all the,

Jasmin Singer: Yeah, I just remember like standing on the Upper West Side wearing a tv, which was so heavy.

That had like foie gras footage. It was, it was in, I mean it,

Mariann Sullivan: Eddie Llama was doing it all over New York City, but the equipment was very expensive and very difficult to load and unload just to get video out on the street. Boy, times change fast, don't they?

Jasmin Singer: What happened?

Like how did Wegmans react? Was there, I assume there was a lot of hostility.

Adam Durand: Well, yeah, it was interesting 'cause they denied that the footage was from their facility, but they also pressed charges saying that we had trespassed illegally. So they want, they had it both ways really in the local media at least.

Um, uh, so they were able to, to deny it. And we even had GPS, uh, like we, we bought back then, you know, you could get a little, uh, GPS receiver. And so we held that up on camera to, for the fact checkers and stuff. But, um, you know, we, but I would go on TV for an interview and the interviewer would say, you know what, you know, Wegmans denies this is from their facility.

What kind of proof do you have? You know, that sort of thing. It was wild. But meanwhile I was also showing up to court appearances where the, you know, the testimony was that yes, that's clearly our facility and, you know, so, you know, what, what are you gonna do? So, uh,

Jasmin Singer: Were, you like... what, what was your story before all this?

Like before the, the dinner with the friend? Like, what were you doing? Were you just like a normal dude who's suddenly, whose life was suddenly, you know, thrust into this?

Mariann Sullivan: Have you forgotten what it's like to be young, Jasmin?

Jasmin Singer: Yes, I have, but no, but like, were, were, what ...was this shocking to your life? 'Cause this is quite the about phase.

Adam Durand: I wouldn't say it was, I wouldn't say I was ever a normal dude. Um, the, you know, the, I think that, um, you know, I was always a skeptic and somebody who questioned things.

Um, and, you know, I was somebody, I was a rule follower in every single way. Um, I, I, even today I drive the speed limit and I have road ragers behind me, like honking their horn, frustrated that I won't go over the speed limit.

Um, and yet, in the case, you know, when I see a moral wrong, I don't, I'm not gonna follow the rules. Like the law goes out the window when I suddenly see something that needs to be addressed. So,

Mariann Sullivan: Wait second, I just wrote a whole law review article about how you didn't break the law, so be careful.

Adam Durand: Okay. That's correct. You know, if if we, if we're told, you know, that this is wrong, you can't do this, um, by, you know, in this case, it would be the authorities, you know, we could say, well, no, this is, you know, there, there is a necessity here. You know, there, um, we have to do this. You know, there's a moral obligation for us to act.

So, you know, I feel like, and I had never been in trouble with the law before, but, you know, I had, I don't know, like, I feel like I do kind of question those, you know, those tenets of, you know, like, well, this is how it's always been done. Like, I, you know, I, I always question that. So,

Jasmin Singer: And you did, did, you plead not... you pled not guilty, right?

Adam Durand: And we, we did, um, try to move forward with a necessity defense. Um, we, you know, we, yeah, I pled not guilty. Um, I had two co-defendants, um, who were offered plea deals. Um, but I was never offered a plea deal. If I was, I'm not sure if I would take it.

Um, but yeah, in that, you know, in that case, um, you know, they were given, they pled guilty to larceny.

Um, and you know, I wasn't given that deal. I had to go to trial for burglary. So yeah, I was facing three charges of felony burglary for three different visits to the facility. Um, and so that was a total of 21 years in prison, if I had been given, you know, consecutive sentences to the max.

Jasmin Singer: Wow.

Mariann Sullivan: But it ended up that you were actually... and can I just say, I mentioned that I knew the lawyer on your case, and can I, I just say that at the time we discussed the necessity defense, which is probably what, that's the whole story that started me thinking about, oh, there's this defense out here, which is basically kind of a lesser of two evils kind of concept. You could do something that would be illegal, if it's to prevent something that's worse than, than the har harm the crime would, uh, cause.

So anyway, I just got excited when you said that. Of course, the courts get away, get away with it by, by not letting you, not letting you present it to the jury. But even so, even though you weren't allowed to present your case adequately, you were acquitted of a lot of the charges, right?

Adam Durand: Yeah. So, and I guess the jury, I mean, I don't know.

You know, I don't know what it was. Like, it was, our legal strategy was to show the conditions inside the facility and the, some, for some reason the judge did allow us to show some, uh, still photos, um, and some limited video of the facility. And, uh, you know, we were just hoping that by saying these, you know, we were rescuing these animals, we were not stealing them.

Uh, and I, you know, I actually testified. Um, so I was up on the stand, um, having to face the, the prosecutor and cross-examination and all that. But we thought, putting me in front of the jury and having me talk about why I went in there, um, we could potentially, um, get an acquittal. And so yeah, I ended up, I was acquitted on all the counts of burglary and the, the three counts of larceny and only convicted of, uh, three counts of trespass.

So yeah, we were, and we thought that was a victory at the time. I mean, I was thrilled.

Mariann Sullivan: Well it kinda was. You'd be in prison, Adam, so

Adam Durand: I could be!

Mariann Sullivan: So I would, I would count that as at least a semi victory. I mean, it's very similar to the Utah DXE case in a lot of ways because they were also not allowed to plead a necessity defense to make that argument.

But the jury ended up aquitting them, and one of, they were able to bring in the condition of the hens. The, in that case it was pigs, the condition of the pigs, because one of their arguments had to do with the value of the pigs. So they actually did get some. And it, that's what's so important is, is getting before the jury some indication of what the hell is actually going on in those places.

And I, I, I mean, juries are made up of human beings who like actually react, I would say. So I would say that was a very important part of your case, that the jury managed to see some of that.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. What was prison like, Adam?

Adam Durand: Well, so you know, like the, what happened, like right before sentencing, ABC News Primetime Live came out with a report on the case.

This was like days before sentencing. And Chris Cuomo had, Chris Cuomo flew out to the egg farm to interview me standing in front of the egg farm, um, talking about the conditions inside. And you know what, why I had gone in and they, this was part of, they did a, a show that particular week, it was on people, uh, video either getting people in trouble or getting people out of trouble.

It was like the impact that video has. And, and they were pitching me as part of this, like this video, he filmed this to, to document the bad conditions, and yet they used the footage against him. And so, you know, I, you know, the judge I think was unhappy with the positive coverage I was getting, um, in the media.

And, uh, so on the day of the sentencing, you know, and we were expecting, you know, we were not expecting jail time, but the judge gave me, uh, six months in jail, uh, and uh, something like a year and a half of probation, a hefty fine, community service time. And, uh, it was past the statutory limits in New York state of what the judge is allowed to sentence you to.

So the...

Mariann Sullivan: I can tell you like no a first, first offense, trespass of a person with no record whatsoever, nobody's gonna get jail time. Nobody except you, Adam.

Adam Durand: Well, and well, the problem was that I wasn't able to appeal right away because, um, the judge had given me an illegal sentence. So the appellate court wasn't going to even review the case until the judge had given me a proper sentence.

So I was carted off to jail and awaiting time on the judge's docket, which was about a month later, so that he could actually give me a, a, a sentence that would be allowed in New York State.

So, um, so yeah, I, you know, in jail, I mean, it was something else. It was, I had known about the inequities in jail and I had been just, in general, uh, opposed to the carceral state. Uh, but being inside of it is something else. Like, it's, it's not, you know, the, you can't learn about this, really. You have to experience it. And it, it was, and it shocked me, the amount of, uh, just the classism and racism in jail and the way that the guards treat inmates and with, without any kind of repercussions.

And, you know, mine, I, I was called terrible names by the guards. Um, threatened with, uh, abuse, like, um, you know, they would threaten to beat me up and stuff like that, maybe to get a rise outta me. Um, but I, I just couldn't believe, uh, the treatment in there. And this was a rural jail. And I, you know, some of the guards, it was my understanding that they worked at Wegmans Egg Farm, uh

Mariann Sullivan: Oh

Adam Durand: as security. So, yeah. Then they would come and, I don't know, take it out on me. But then, uh, yeah, the inmates though were great. Like the, you know, I, I got along, uh, great with the inmates and, um, you know, I'm, you know, I don't, I didn't form any lasting friendships in the month I was in there. I think I kind of wanted to put some of that world behind me.

I did see the impact that jail was having on my fellow inmates and my own life. Like the, the way that it, it puts stresses on families and finances and all those sorts of things. And, um, you know, it was a, a month later that I went back in front of the judge. He sentenced me to, um, to just the, just the, uh, six months of, uh, jail time, not the, uh, probation and other aspects of the sentence.

So it was a, now a legal sentence in New York State, and a few days later, an appellate court, uh, let me out. And so, and I, you know, that was unexpected to just get out that fast. Um, and, uh, you know, it was, it was, it felt amazing to be able to pet animals again, to be able to touch grass, literally. I just loved touching grass or breathing fresh air, all those sorts of things.

So yeah, it was, it was a, an experience, you know, it was a terrible experience. I was forced to serve eggs in the jail. Um, you know, as part, you know, that was my job. Um, and for zero pay, because in, you know, include in New York State in most states, you, you don't get paid for your forced labor in jail. Um, and, uh, and then.

You know, it was, I had nightmares and stuff like that and had trouble remembering how to use like, drawers and clothing and stuff. 'Cause I only had one set of clothes at any given time, things like that. So it, it, you know, it was something else, but I wouldn't trade that experience for the world.

Jasmin Singer: Hmm. Do you, I, I I mean, do you have any kind of PTSD from, from your experiences in, in anything that you've been talking about, whether it's jail or, um, the open rescue.

Adam Durand: Yeah. I feel like the moment I got sentenced by that judge and was whisked away to the jail, like, I definitely did a lot of therapy around that, um, to kind of dig into like what that moment was like. Where I thought, you know, I was, I was all right, and then I was suddenly being in this other world that I did not expect to be in.

I, my partner at the time was, uh, away. She, she wasn't even in town. Um, and I was supposed to get back to feed the dogs, and I had all these responsibilities. I had a job and all that. And, you know, now I'm, now I have this different life and I thought I was gonna be in there for at least four months, maybe the full six, because, um, you, you know, I was given that six month sentence, you get, uh, a third off in New York, uh, for, uh, good behavior.

But I was thinking, well, I might have to protest because they weren't gonna feed me vegan food or because of the conditions, what have you. So I thought maybe I would, um, have to serve the full six. So I was buckled up for that. But, um, that was like the, yeah, that was definitely something that I've had to process over the years.

Um, you know, but it's also, it's something that has motivated me to stay active, to know that they're these, people go through this all the time. Like people, you know, there's just so many people in the US especially like more so than, than in other places in the world that, that have that experience that are whisked away from their families.

And so I think about that and that makes me get out there and, and fight for human rights as much as animal rights.

Mariann Sullivan: What, what did they feed you?

Adam Durand: Well, part of being the person who served eggs to the, to the entire jail. I was also in the kitchen. I got to work in the kitchen, so, I, I was able to put together, um you know, a, uh, I, I would have... what was my diet? Mostly it was like white bread, margarine, orange juice, lima beans. And these were all things that

Mariann Sullivan: Well, lima beans are good for you.

Adam Durand: They are. And every, you know, everybody would get like a slice of white bread, but I could have all the white bread I wanted, you know, that sort of thing.

So being in the kitchen was great. 'cause the first couple days before I was given that job, um, I was, uh, I was very hungry. Uh, I was just eating, you know, just a couple things off my plate. And the jail said that I would need to lose like 10% of my body weight before they would, uh, consider feeding me a vegan diet.

It was, yeah. They, they needed me to have a medical emergency before they would acknowledge my diet.

Jasmin Singer: Wow. That's nuts.

Mariann Sullivan: You know, it's interesting what you say about like, that you keep going over that first, you know, the first moment when you were carted away. 'cause I've, I've heard it mentioned so many times that, you know, within, if you're going to have carceral penalties, short ones can have so much more impact than long ones because it's those first three days where you're just completely freaked out. You think your life is over. And, um, then like, like anything, we're humans. We, we adjust to things, you know, everybody adjusts to, to things, and it doesn't have the same emotional impact.

It sounds like for you, those first three days were, were bad.

Adam Durand: Yeah, it was, and it was like, you know, in New York, you're kept in solitary confinement for a couple days while there's a tuberculosis testing process. Um, and that involves, they, I think they, that involves some sort of animal products too. And I, you know, didn't consent to, to those being injected into me to see my reaction.

But, um, but yeah, it was, you know, I, I was alone. I, there was a, uh, jail, uh, librarian, um, who like just one of the fellow inmates, but he had the job of handing out books and, and, uh, he gave me a Oprah book club book that I think I read twice, cover to cover in those couple of days. You know, it was, you're just trying to get through and this is an empty cell.

I mean, it's, it is really something else when, at least in my case, when I first went in.

Jasmin Singer: Do you, uh, shop at Wegmans now? Are you allowed to?

Adam Durand: You know, they, I don't think they've ever formally trespassed me from the store.

Mariann Sullivan: They don't have the egg facility anymore, I should make that clear.

Adam Durand: They did. Yes. So soon after, yeah, soon after our expose, I think it was like around the time I was in jail, so that was like a year later, they sold the egg farm, which was the largest egg farm in New York State. They sold it to the company that owned the second largest egg farm in New York state. And they still run that egg farm to this day.

So it's in the same place. Um, and so yeah, Wegmans is out of the game, but they, I look, it appears that they still have a contract with that company that they're still selling eggs from that facility. Um, and is, as far as I know, yeah, I could, I spend maybe outta my own pocket. I spend maybe a few doll, maybe $10 a year at Wegmans.

If I'm like in a pinch and I need to get like a beverage or something. I, you know, I don't spend much money there personally, but I do, you know, I have a lot of friends who shop there, family. You know, and I, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of stores around me that, uh, are not Wegmans.

Jasmin Singer: So, having had the experience that you have had, can you share your thoughts on the past and future open rescue in the movement?

Adam Durand: Yeah. It's, you know, when you look at a lot of historical movements, um, they involve, they involve, you know, movements that have had success, have involved, uh, people who have taken some personal risk. Uh, and so I feel like open rescue is, is part, should be part of a, a, um, larger strategy that the movement has. Many different facets, but I think that open rescue or other kinds of nonviolent, uh, you know, direct action should be a part of, of where we're going.

Um, you know, I, I do, you know, I I mean I, it, it's, it's sad to think of the personal, um, adversity that we need to face as activists, um, in order to make an impact. But the, I mean, we're up against so much. We're up against and it doesn't seem to be getting much better. And, uh, you know, I think we need to stay out there.

Um, and, and, you know, I think we just, we, we do need to be aware of movement resources and there's not a lot of animal rights attorneys. Um, you know, there's the, the Denver Animal Law Clinic, they're amazing. And, um, you know, and there, there are other folks out there who are doing that incredible work. Um, but, you know, there's, um, there's not a lot of people.

So we, we need to pick and choose our battles, of course. And, you know, I think, but I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fully expect to be doing more of that kind of work in the future, and I hope other people do as well.

Mariann Sullivan: You mentioned when we contacted you to do this, that you wanted to talk about vistopia.

And I was thinking, that is a word that I remember, but I don't remember why. And we actually interviewed Clare Mann, who I think coined that term, she was on the podcast on episode 539, but I don't remember a lot about it. And you specifically said you wanted to talk about it, so tell us why and what it means for those of us who forget and, and, and what it is and how you handle it.

Adam Durand: Yeah. So vistopia is the experience of being vegan in a, a seemingly uncaring non-vegan world. And it's the the seemingly, yeah. I mean, that's the thing and, and

Mariann Sullivan: Adam, that you said seemingly.

Adam Durand: Because we can debate, I mean, you know, like, it, seems like in a way people care, but yet they're putting their money behind, you know, this, this atrocity that. Yeah. So, and it, so, yeah.

It's hard and, and it's hard when you're out there in the streets, you know, you're, you're doing what you can to change the world and you don't see an immediate impact and you wonder like, you know, what is going on. So, you know, the, I I've personally have really struggled with that feeling of distress and feeling like I live in a dystopia.

Um, and so yeah, I've just kind of, I just think that activists should take care of themselves. And one way I do that is by, of course, volunteering at an animal sanctuary. Mockingbird Farm Animal Sanctuary has been a great way to connect to the animals who are, who have gotten out of the food system and get to live out their lives in peace.

And, um, you know, I, I feel like, I think, I feel like people need to practice that kind of self-care, find those avenues, um, of, you know, being able to deal with this kind of, these kind of negative emotions and channel that into positive. And, and you know, I mean, cuddling a turkey cures all of my ills, it feels like.

You know?

Mariann Sullivan: No, that's a really good point. Being around the animals really, really helps you get through it and renews your spirit. What do you think they're, do you think that sanctuaries also like are activism? Like, 'cause there's been a lot of talk in the movement about whether they're really the, you know, 'cause they're expensive

Adam Durand: mm-hmm.

Mariann Sullivan: and it costs a lot of money to maintain them and a lot of, a lot of a lot of movement resources go into them. Do you think that they are effective in creating change, not just in, in helping us get through the night?

Adam Durand: I do think that they're just an important piece of the puzzle, that it requires all sorts of different avenues for change.

And I, you know, sanctuaries, I mean, we need a place to, if we're, if we believe in open rescue, we definitely need a place to bring the animals who we rescue. So that's, so sanctuaries are important for that reason. Um, and, you know, but just, just in and of themselves. Like they, they are a way. Like, like for example, this weekend, um, my church, we have an animal ministry at First Universalist Church, and we're bringing folks to Mockingbird for a tour.

Um, and you know, so we're, we're bringing people who might not have a background in animal rights, they get to meet these animals. We get to talk to them. And not only are, you know, we potentially helping people on a path towards a more peaceful diet, but, um, maybe we can get them out on the streets as well for, you know, the upcoming, uh, protest against Marshall Bioresources or something like that.

So it's part of, it's part of a puzzle that I just think is important. And I, I think we have seen a lot of funding like this, effective altruism, some of that money that used to go to animal sanctuaries, might be going more towards plant-based meats or things like that. And I do think that plant-based meats are important, but you know, I, I just, I think, like I said, it's, it's, they're part of a puzzle.

And if we, if we have the plant-based meat, but we don't have the ethical background of why people should be switching over, then, you know, what does it really get us, other than it maybe a temporary, um, curiosity that people have where.

Jasmin Singer: Right, or the media and the arts, which effective altruism is not so effective in funding because they don't see it.

I mean, where would we be without that? Where would your campaign have been without media? Um, I love Mockingbird, by the way. I've interviewed Jonelle for WXXI, and I know her twin sister Jasmin, um, who ha, who I adore, and just the sanctuary. They do incredible work there. Uh, and you, you just mentioned Marshall Bioresources, which is a massive breeder of beagles, cats, pigs, and ferrets in upstate New York.

So tell, I'd like to just go back to that for a moment. Can you tell people a little bit more about that and, and why it's something you're passionate about?

Adam Durand: Yeah, so Marshall, they've been around, oh gosh, like a hundred years, I think. They have been around for a long time and they, um, yeah, I think they, since the 1930s. Um, they, yeah, so they are, I believe the, they are the largest breeder of beagles for science in America.

Uh, they currently have 26,000 beagles there, and they're just 45 minutes outside of Rochester. Uh, they also breed, uh, ferrets for sales at pet stores. They breed cats and pigs, but beagles are their main money maker.

And, um, yeah, they are, uh, I mean, if you look at them from the outside, I mean, they are set behind hills and trees and things like that, so they're kind of obscure, but they look just like a factory farm, just like any other factory farm.

Um, but there are beagles inside, which, you know, when I, when I first went vegan, I definitely wanted to focus on chickens because they are, you know, they, they're very, they have hard lives in America, in the world, um, chickens in general. And uh, there's so many of them. And beagles, you know, the beagle people already love beagles, right?

But now as a more seasoned activist, I recognize that beagles are a great avenue for people who might might, they might not care about chickens yet, but they definitely care about dogs. There's a lot of people who love dogs, who love beagles in particular. And, um, you know, that those are the kind of folks we're recruiting to take on, uh, Marshall Bioresources.

And they, you know, they've, they're right now they are losing funding on a federal level, um, because of the, in general science funding is being pulled. Um, so Marshall doesn't have as many places to sell their beagles, so they are on the ropes. And, you know, right now our strategy is, uh, protest and, uh, you know, some other related strategies of, uh, talking to, um, you know, suppliers or, uh, people who, um, you know, distribute Marshall products.

'Cause they not, they also have a manufacturing, uh, capability and they're making like cages for animals, things like that, that are sold at pet stores. So we're, you know, we're kinda looking at the whole business in general, but, um. Right now our goal is to, is to get out there in front of Marshall and, uh, you know, we're holding up signs.

Uh, we are, um, you know, and we're, the, the thing that's heartbreaking to me is that they work with the local school system to bring kids in to work in the facility. So there's a school bus that pulls up every day and drops students off. And so at least the students see us when we're out there, you know, and we get a lot of support from the local community.

A lot of a surprising number of thumbs up in the area because it seems like even the neighbors around this facility are opposed to what they're doing inside.

Mariann Sullivan: How do you like, uh, it's always so difficult to mount a protest about a, against a business that's kind of out in the middle of nowhere.

Like is there, are there good places you can mount this protest or is it? I mean it. I, I know vaguely where it is. It's not a heavily populated area. Is it? Like, do you get, I mean, the school bus itself makes it sort of worth it, but, but do you, do you get a lot of traction?

Adam Durand: We don't, you know, there's not, there's zero foot traffic.

Um, But there's, there's, um,

Mariann Sullivan: Middle of the country here, like.

Adam Durand: Yeah, it, it is a major.

Mariann Sullivan: It's, it's a big, like, it's kind of behind closed gates.

Adam Durand: Yeah, it's a big facility and it is on a, on a road that connects the, a major Route 104 up to the, um, lake Ontario. So there we do get a lot of traffic going by. Um, and then this, uh, this coming week, uh, we're, there's, it's apple harvest season, so we're expecting more people in the area, um, potentially apple picking, things like that. But,

Mariann Sullivan: Big. Apple picking is a big deal here up in upstate New York, I can assure you all.

Adam Durand: So yeah, we're hoping to, to get more eyes on our protest and also hoping to draw the media out. Um, we got a little bit of media coverage last year and, uh, you know, that, yeah, it's, it's great to, um, to have that out there, but, you know, it's gonna take a lot more than just protests to bring Marshall down.

It's, you know, it's gonna be, it's gonna, it's, it's gonna be a long fought battle. Um, but hopefully we can get those dogs out, one way or another.

Mariann Sullivan: But I think you're exactly right that this is a good moment. I mean, talk about every, every, every, uh, cloud has a silver lining. The attack on the federal government is managing to reduce the funding for animal experimentation right now.

So they probably are in a vulnerable position.

Jasmin Singer: So, Adam, I, we've kept you for a long time and I want you to be able to do a q and a with us and our flock, who's here with us as this is Flock Friday. So if you're listening or tuning and then you wanna be here live, uh, check out the flock at ourhenhouse.org/support.

And thank you also to our flock members who are here. But Adam, I just wanna, uh, kinda end on a really simple little question that, um, I think you could probably answer, which is, um, why do you think that people, not the psychopaths, but like regular people who love animals aren't vegan?

Adam Durand: You know, I think it comes down to human psychology, which, you know, is a very complex thing.

But yeah, I, I, it. We, we are very good at holding two competing thoughts in our heads at the same time, like, I'm a good person who loves animals and I also like to eat animals. And it's amazing that folks are able to do that. And, you know, nobody here is infallible. There's aspects in our own lives where we're like, well, I care about the environment, but I'm also buying a single use plastic from the grocery store.

Uh, you know, for what, maybe it's a, a bottle of soda water, which, uh, my 7-year-old niece just called me out the other day for, for buying. But, um, but yeah, it's, you know, there's, um, there's aspects of, of, you know, humans where we do have these blind spots, um, each in our own way. And the major blind spot, of course is, uh, with animals.

And, you know, it's, it's gonna take just a lot more work. And, and like I said, we're coming from all sides here. It's gonna, you know, we're gonna need to be pressuring the companies to roll out better products and we're gonna need to keep talking to individuals in our own lives about how they can make better choices.

Mariann Sullivan: I mean, this is the thing I hang on to, to, to give me hope that it's the kind that, you know, when you talk about this cognitive dissonance, we're holding two ideas at the same time. And it's the kind of thing that once you do wake up, you really wake up because once it falls apart, you can't put it back together again.

You actually see the truth. So I think even though I don't know how we create that change, I think that change can happen really fast. I think we've all seen it in our own lives. It's like that all of a sudden you see it and then you can unsee it.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. And, and you are a reason why so many people see it.

I mean, you really, were always someone I looked up to long before, long, long, like decades before we actually ultimately connected. But uh, it's just even more so now because you're, you're so sweet. Like why are you so sweet? Like with everything you've seen, why don't you have a chip on your shoulder like me and Mariann? Or do you and we just don't see it?

Mariann Sullivan: I beg your pardon.

Jasmin Singer: No, but like you do have a sunny disposition.

Mariann Sullivan: You do.

Adam Durand: Yeah. I think, you know, I, I, I have my moments, I'm sure, but, you know, I try, you know, my, my main goal is I, I only got one shot in this life. I might as well enjoy it as best I can. Spread the love, you know, pull in all the love, like the love you're putting out.

Um, and, you know, just, just live the best life I can. And, and that means trying to save as many individuals, um, of all species as I can.

Jasmin Singer: Yeah. I love that. Well, that seems like the perfect note to end on. Adam, if people want to get in touch with you or follow you online, do you have any socials you could share with us or anything like that?

Adam Durand: Yeah, I'm on, uh, I'm on the socials. I'm not great. I, I think it's like Adam.Durand at Instagram is probably the best way to get in touch. Um, yep It's Adam.Durand on Instagram!

Jasmin Singer: Love that you checked that. That's so great. All right, fine. And we'll link to it in the show notes if that's okay with you?

Adam Durand: Definitely.

Jasmin Singer: All right. Amazing. Well, I just wanna say thank you so much. Don't go anywhere 'cause we wanna chat with you with our flock in a moment.

And if you are watching or listening, thank you so much for being here. If you are Flock member, watch out for the bonus content in your email Monday. If you're not a Flock member, you know what to do.

ourhenhouse.org/support. And thanks to Vicki Beechler and Jen Riley for their assistance in producing this episode. I'm Jasmin Singer.

Mariann Sullivan: I'm Mariann Sullivan.

Jasmin Singer: See She did it again. And, uh, catch us for Rising Anxieties on Tuesday.